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Doctors at Work Podcast.

Episode #62

Learn to hear and be heard

Mat Daniel


How can we improve the quality of professional and leadership communications at work? In this episode, Pietro tells me that hearing others and learning to hear are both skills that can be learnt and developed. It starts with a mindset focused on service, the others’ needs, and common goals, and less on personal ego and agenda. Whilst being in one place a long time creates important institutional memory, there is an advantage to being an outsider too as this enables thinking and acting in a way that solves problems in a different way to what is “the usual” way of working. Having eyes open for opportunities to make a difference matters.

Dr Garbelli is a specialist in acute internal medicine, a clinical director, and a Thriving Healthcare consultant. Having witnessed and experienced inefficiencies, frustrations, and struggles as a patient, a relative, and a provider, he uses the lessons learned as a powerful catalyst to provide medical thought leadership. By fostering a successful collaboration between empowered physicians and healthcare stakeholders, he aims to contribute toward creating high-quality and sustainable healthcare. His book The Doctor’s Voice: Empowering Solutions to Physicians’ Frustrations, Burnout, and Healthcare Inefficiencies explores common sources of frustration with practical steps that can help medical professionals reclaim their lives and transform the healthcare field for the better.

You can find him at, on LinedInTwitterFacebook, Threads and Youtube.

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Podcast Transcript

Mat: [00:00:00] Welcome to Doctors at Work. My name is Mat Daniel and this podcast is about doctors’ careers. Today I’m having a conversation with Pietro Garbelli, who’s a book author, and we’re talking about learning to hear and be heard. How can we improve the quality of professional and leadership communication at work?

In this episode, Pietro tells me that hearing others and learning to hear are both skills that can be learned and developed. It starts with a mindset focused on service, the other’s needs and common goals. And less on personal ego and agenda. Now, whilst being in one place for a long time creates important institutional memory, there’s also an advantage to being an outsider because that enables thinking and acting in a way that solve problems in a different way to what the usual way of working is.

Having eye opens for opportunities to make a difference really matters.

Mat: Welcome Pietro. Tell me a little bit about yourself.

Pietro: Good morning, Matt. Thank [00:01:00] you for inviting me to your podcast. My name is Pietro Armando Garbelli. I’m an acute physician. I originally trained in Italy, but moved to the UK 16 years ago, and I’ve been working in acute hospitals ever since. I’m making my career progression and I currently work as a clinical director for acute medicine in a hospital in North London.

And I’m also the author of The Doctor’s Voice, the book that you read and brought to this conversation. It came out, uh, early this year in 2023, um, and, uh, actually last year, I’m still on the wrong, uh, wrong clock and, uh, it’s been well received and I’m very proud of, uh, being, talking a little bit about this, uh, today.

Mat: Well, congratulations on getting the book published. I mean, I’ve certainly very much enjoyed them reading it. Um, can you tell us what what’s the book [00:02:00] about? What’s the thinking? What’s the intention? What’s the aim? Uh, I

Pietro: wrote this book mainly for doctors like us to to recognize and talk about The problems that we face every day the amount of frustrations that make our job Harder than it’s meant to be Um, and I draw a lot of, um, uh, from my personal experience and talking to colleagues, reflecting on, uh, uh, our collective experience, uh, uh, also with my business coach, Tony Salimi.

Um, I talk about, uh, my path, uh, that brought me at some point to feel completely burnt out and, uh, uh, pretty much hate my job and want to, uh, to quit. I came to the point that I was planning to take action and, uh, stop being a doctor, but, uh, for some reason I couldn’t, uh, I couldn’t really make any steps forward.

So I [00:03:00] spent a lot of time reflecting on what I really wanted to do with my life and reconnecting with my initial vocation and wanting to actually do something to make the experience of being a doctor better for everyone so that we can be at our best for our patients. I observed so much suffering, uh, amongst our colleagues and, uh, that reflects the poor quality of healthcare that we are able to give to our patients.

And I’ve seen that as a healthcare user or as a relative, bringing my, uh, my relatives to, uh, to hospital appointments and so on. So I really felt at some point I wanted to, uh, make a difference and do something that, uh, can help, uh, healthcare.

Mat: Thank you. And the particular thing that I thought we might focus on in our discussion today is, um, this idea of listening and [00:04:00] speaking up and hearing.

And one of the chapters in your book is called Learn to Hear. Um, and to be heard. Um, and I really sort of like that phrase, learn to hear and to be heard. Um, tell me a bit more about that phrase.

Pietro: It came from, uh, reflecting on, uh, some issues that I encountered early in my leadership roles. Uh, I constantly felt Frustrated that when I was, uh, um, talking about, uh, issues that I was looking, uh, to find a solution for with, uh, managers and executives, uh, um, it felt like, uh, they didn’t really hear me.

Um, very often the problem was dismissed. It was not a priority. I couldn’t get through, and I thought, um, how come? I thought as doctors, uh, are good at communicating. We spend a lot of time talking to patients, listening to their concerns, uh, finding common ground. [00:05:00] And I realized then, talking with my coach, that, uh, there’s a whole Set of different skills that allow us to connect to people that work in different fields and in general in life.

It’s about being able to really listen to what people’s values are. Meaning, what, uh, ticks them, what, uh, motivates them, what is important to them. And sometimes it’s a mixture of, uh, what is important for them in their profession. For example, the targets that, uh, are imposed upon them because of their job, uh, uh, description and the role that they have in the hospital in their, in their organization.

But also in their personal lives. We’re all different, even, uh, uh, between us doctors. For some of us, what is most important is dedicating time to research. For others is developing a service, uh, innovation, or spending time with our families and [00:06:00] partners, or, uh, learning and, uh, or teaching. So, um, there are Different things that become our top priorities.

And if we’re not aware of what is important to each other, and what is important for the organization, it’s very difficult to align those values and have a conversation so that we have a win win situation where we tick our boxes and we find a really common ground. So it was a difficult journey for me, I found it extremely challenging.

I, and I wanted to share that with, uh, with other colleagues so that we can learn to empower ourselves being better leaders and pitch ideas and talk about what is important to make our daily experiences better for our patients.

Mat: I like that, um, that analogy of [00:07:00] multiple different things being important because I’m thinking so, you know, I might want to see a patient at 8.30 and I might sort of say, you know, I need to go to a lunchtime meeting. So I don’t want the patient booked at the end of the clinic. Can I see them at 8. 30? And that’s what suits me. But then the people that work at the clinic are going to say, well, that means we’re going to have to open the clinic, so we don’t want to do that.

And somebody else might sort of say, oh, you know, there’s a long waiter. Can you not see the long waiter, um, at 8. 30? And somebody else might say, I’ve got to research patients to see, and I want to use that room for research patient at 8. 30. Or somebody else might say, I’ve got private patients to see, and I want to use that room for a private patient at 8.30. And, and it’s very easily, you can kind of see how, How that that that room being available at 8 30 all of a sudden that everybody has a different idea Um, as to what the room should be used and actually they’re all perfectly reasonable ideas, aren’t they?

Pietro: Yeah, totally. And they’re, they all fulfill a role.

I mean, [00:08:00] something that is important for the patients, for healthcare, for the development of, uh, of knowledge, but obviously, uh, it really depends on finding a common ground and an agreement. And sometimes it takes adjustments in our personal schedule. One thing that I talk about in the book is how very often our job planning, our schedules are unrealistic and how poorly we sometimes plan for activities and deadlines.

I don’t know about you, but I very often find myself in Times of the year when I’m drowning with deadlines and everybody wants a piece of me and I keep getting emails saying, you need to do this, you need to do that at the last minute, and times of the year when there isn’t much happening from an administrative, bureaucratic point of view.

And all of that can be changed. It takes [00:09:00] a little bit of planning and agreement and understanding. But if we keep working in silos and being unable to communicate and we don’t know what each other’s workload is, it’s very easy to just assume, well, you know, you have that as part of your job, so you just have to do it.

Mat: And the danger there is that there’s often lots of really good opportunities that come or there might be things we have to do, but often they’re really good opportunities and you say, yeah, I’d love to do that. That would be a brilliant thing to do. And then, you know, you at least sort of in my case, I say yes to things and then I hope that they don’t all come at the same time.

So because, you know, because that’s the problem, isn’t it? Say, Oh, I’d love to do that. I’d love to do this. And then, you know, you spend time thinking, but if you’re really unlucky. you find yourself that in the same week, you know, there are sort of seven or eight deadlines that, that all need to be done. And as you say, all of that then, um, needs to be planned for, doesn’t [00:10:00] it?

Cause you know, you need to, you need to think ahead rather than just think of tomorrow

Pietro: or today. It also comes. Sometimes to the lack of support in structures around us, you think about, uh, um, people of, uh, our seniority, uh, in equivalent organizations, uh, they often get, uh, uh, I don’t know, a secretary, a PA, and that, that’s nowadays a rarity in, uh, in a lot of healthcare systems we have to do.

Everything, uh, on our own, we have to manage our own schedule and diary and, uh, schedule meetings and, uh, resolve conflicts. Uh, there’s so much going on and, uh, sometimes you really wish I could delegate some of these tasks and the reason much in, in terms, uh, of, uh, um, personal help, but also, um, the systems that we use sometimes are obsolete.

There’s a whole lot of, [00:11:00] uh, uh, apps, uh, and, uh, software that we use in our personal lives. And then when we come to work, we have to, uh, put up with clunky systems and, uh, uh, software from a decade ago. it can be very challenging.

Mat: I have to say with the PAs, I’m feeling very lucky because I have the world’s best PA, um, and she’s called Mandy and I don’t know what I would do without her.

So I’m feeling so lucky. So I’m, I’m walking away thinking I need to, I need to be a bit more grateful for what I have. Um, and, um, and I need to say thank you to Mandy a bit more often because, because she is the world’s

Pietro: best PA. It’s easy to forget. Sometimes when It’s easier, I think, in, uh, earlier in our career when, uh, because of training, we quickly jump, uh, every six months or every year into a different organization and you immediately notice the differences.

You notice, [00:12:00] you compare, uh, even unknowingly in your mind, uh, um, that was better in this other organization. I wish I had that. After you settle in, uh, in your job for a while. You kind of tend to forget what it is like and you don’t know what others have access to or don’t have access to.

Mat: Absolutely. Let’s, let’s go back to sort of this idea of, of learning to hear and to be heard.

So, you know, let’s, let’s kind of start with the, with the second bit about, about getting heard. So what, what, what do people need to do in order to get heard?

Pietro: Um, there is something that, uh, we are constantly asked for, which is, uh, giving feedback. And my experience in, in my early years, uh, was, uh, it was, uh, ineffective.

I remember, um, signing a lot of, uh, petitions, uh, for change, [00:13:00] uh, uh, answering to every single questionnaire that was sent to me, every survey. And then waiting for, uh, uh, for something to change and observing, uh, with a lot of frustration, um, where all this information goes. And then I started, uh, my own, uh, initiative of talking to people and, uh, trying to find, uh, solutions and sometimes, uh, connecting and bypassing certain layers of the organization to go directly and talk to Uh, those who could provide the solution to them offer the solution to the decision makers and the executives.

And I remember, uh, occasionally that approach shocked some of my colleagues. Um, for example, when I, uh, in the hospital, I was working, uh, uh, as a, uh, trust grade registrar. I went and talked to, um, some programmers and developers in the [00:14:00] IT department, uh, talking about a problem we had. And they said, Yes, we can, uh, we can easily develop this piece of software.

And then I talked to my, uh, supervisor and said, I found a solution for a problem that we have. Do you want to talk about that and consider it an organized meeting? They were shocked about, uh, then we had that meeting and things went forward and, uh, it became a reality. So my recommendation is, uh, don’t be discouraged by.

Finding obstacles in, uh, in the structure of the organization where you work, uh, by giving feedback, opening feedback channels, uh, uh, you can achieve a lot. I find that very often there is, uh, information flowing into a direction from the top down, but it’s there, there aren’t many channels, uh, that are, uh, preset and existing that allow information and feedback to go [00:15:00] from, uh, the bottom up.

Sometimes decision makers have access to a lot of data, but not a lot of understanding and knowledge of the issues and the problems and the obstacles that people at the shop floor experience day to day. So it’s important to give this feedback so that they can make a, a good decision making.

Mat: I hope you’re enjoying the show.

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Now on with the show.

I’m interested in, in your mindset, you know, there you were, you were a registrar and you went to talk to, to, you know, coders. And, um, what, what [00:16:00] kind of mindset did you need to, to say, okay, I’m going to go and do something that nobody’s ever done before, you know, I’m, I’m guessing that no registrar before you has ever gone and sort of unspoken, maybe sort of nowadays it’s perhaps a little bit, um, a little bit more, but you know, in the past, you know, that just wouldn’t happen, would it?

So what kind of mindset did you have that enabled you to do that? At

Pietro: that time, I was a complete outsider. I had just moved to the UK from Italy and, uh, Maybe it was the dissonance between what I was expecting, uh, uh, the world around me to be, to be reactive and, uh, I was Possibly less aware of, uh, hierarchy and roles.

Uh, and I, I didn’t have much, uh, uh, much trouble connecting to people. Um, so I, I connected, uh, as a friend to a person that, uh, moved from a nursing job to an IT job, and, uh, we talked about a problem, uh, while we having a [00:17:00] drink and, uh, I said, well, I think I know the right person for you to talk to, um, as I said, being an outsider, I had it.

Different approaching a lot of things. I remember finding a lot of frustration with a computer that was crucial for my role on a day to day basis where I had to enter the information for referrals that were coming through a phone at a very high speed and That computer had a lot of software issues, so, uh, it had been reported, we were waiting for, um, uh, the solution, and I just got so frustrated that I took the, the desktop, wrote it down to IT, and I said, fix it, and they did now, and they did fix it, uh, within a couple of hours, and brought it back.

They’d never seen anything like that, but, uh, uh, Maybe being a little bit bold and, uh, uh, working [00:18:00] outside the normal, uh, boundaries of behavior that we are expected to have, uh, sometimes can achieve, uh, something different. Okay,

Mat: so there’s so much to unpick with that. So, so, okay, so the connection, that human touch, you know, that, that’s really important that you’re a human being, they’re a human being, you know, you, you talk, you, you know, you go, you go and you talk to people, you make connections, and then magic happens.

Uh, out of that, and it really, it starts, it starts with the human touch, you know, not, not, not, not an email or, or, or not, not, not a ticket sort of onto an automated system, but, but an actual sort of human to human interaction, um, and then magic happens. So I think that the thing with the, with the outsider, that kind of makes perfect sense to me.

Um, but on the other hand, it’s, it’s terrifying because if, if an outsider sort of can think outside of the box and, you know, and bypass the normal channel, then that means that everybody else who’s an insider has been conditioned [00:19:00] into a straight jacket of this is how we think, this is how we behave, this is how we act.

And that, that everybody else then is conditioned into a box and people don’t see beyond the box. And that’s terrifying, isn’t it?

Pietro: I think it’s inevitable. I noticed that also myself after being in an organization for a while, you kind of forget. Uh, what your really early frustrations were and what you immediately noticed that was dysfunctional.

Um, for example, in my current organization, I made a note when I started my role. I wrote a few pages of, um, issues and recommendations. Uh, and a few years later. We are working on those issues, we are trying to resolve so many of those problems that I first noticed, but I have to admit if I [00:20:00] hadn’t written it down, I would have probably forgotten by now that it was something I Thank you.

I noticed as an outsider, because it becomes your day to day routine. This is how we do it. These are the systems that we have available and the challenges and you forget that there is a much easier way to do it. Maybe with a different approach.

Mat: That actually really resonates if I think, um, with where I am.

I mean, I’ve been a consultant 12 years and with the same trust probably for 22 years, majority of 22 years worked for one trust. Um, and, um, whenever I have new colleagues that start this. There’s, there’s, um, and I can sort of say actually that there’s, there’s probably one frustration that every new colleague that starts, and they sort of say, why did you do this?

And I said, well, it’s just how we do it. And so I said, but why can’t you change? And he said, well, we tried, but it’s, it’s too difficult. And, and it’s, yeah, and every time that a new person starts, I’m reminded kind of, so yeah, this is a [00:21:00] real problem. Um, but you know, it’s just it’s how we do it. It’s too difficult.

It’s it’s unfixable So so we plod on but it takes it takes a new consultant who says I can’t believe you work like this Yeah, well, that’s how we work

Pietro: You know, I I talk about uh, Doctors, uh change in job very often. Uh, sometimes I see that your uh Your situation being in the same organization for such a long time is quite unique nowadays.

It used to be the norm, uh, in the past when doctors used to have a sort of loyalty to an organization and spend most of their work life, uh, within the same organization and, uh, uh, and they were supported to, um, Make a career and pursue whatever aspirations they had and, uh, remain loyal to the organization.

And now we see the opposite. We see a very [00:22:00] dynamic work market where doctors are constantly looking for something better. Uh, they constantly get frustrated about, uh, so many issues and, uh, they constantly want to change every few years, every few years there’s a different opportunity. So many that don’t want to be in an organization at all for very similar reasons and, uh, decide to work, uh, all their career as, uh, temporary workers, as local doctors or with fixed term contracts.

And it has, uh, some benefits. Where you join a new place, uh, with a fresh mindset and you might bring some challenges, but it also takes away so much, uh, know how, so much, uh, value. Each time you have to start, uh, from, uh, from square one and build up the knowledge on, uh, how the organization works and, uh, what your role becomes in it.

And I also see it [00:23:00] as a sign of, uh, Receiving less support, maybe, in our organizations, um, sometimes the opportunities to pursue your aspirations are very limited, uh, we don’t feel appreciated, uh, we don’t see, uh, the, we are not given the time, maybe, to do something slightly different, or, uh, we perceive that, uh, the, there are better work conditions elsewhere.

Um, and that affects inevitably the work market. And on top of that, a lot of doctors, a lot of colleagues decide to look for, uh, better work conditions in a completely different, uh, environment. They might, uh, switch from public health care to private. They might, uh, go abroad. They might, uh, decide to become entrepreneurs and quit the medical career.

Um, and that’s. That’s the biggest motivation that brought me to write this [00:24:00] book, also for decision makers and policymakers to unveil the problems that affect our, our profession so that we can really focus on retaining the workforce by looking after doctors. Uh, not just, uh, talk about, uh, remuneration and pay, uh, we, we do nowadays with strikes, uh, but look at, uh, a whole, uh, uh, wider range of issues that we need to resolve.


Mat: actually, there’s an important message there for the people that are, you know, in senior roles, you and I included, that it’s certainly, I mean, I think I’ve probably been very lucky with the support and encouragement that I’ve had in my career and very grateful for that. I think equally that then there comes a time where you think, okay.

You know, what, what do I or what do other senior doctors need to do to create [00:25:00] ways of working cultures, support systems, development opportunities that, that mean that as you say that, that we do retain people, you know, how, how do we structure people’s lives? How do we structures people career in, in the way that, that, that makes, that makes it, um, um, attractive, that encourages people to stay and that encourages people to thrive and flourish.

So, you know, that, that. That that’s an important thing. Um, and I guess the other thing with with staying in the same organization versus moving around. One of the things, you know, that’s coming up for me there is that the sweet spot is how can you have the best of both worlds? Because there’s a lot to be said for having that, you know, that, that memory, that, you know, the, the knowledge, the understanding, and that may be that, you know, that it’s just too difficult to fix, you know, because there are things that, that are better accepted.

Um, and, and, and there’s no point in getting frustrated with them. Um, but, but then also how do you marry that institutional memory, [00:26:00] um, with constantly having eyes open and constantly looking for new things. And for me, You know, that, that, that’s a mindset. Yeah. And, you know, the, the, the mind, the mindset is every day I’m thinking, you know, is there a better way of doing this?

You know, how can we improve things? So it’s constantly looking for opportunities, constantly looking for ways that we make change, you know, what, what’s new, what, what’s coming up, you know, what’s developing, you know, where’s the opportunity. And then, you know, a problem that maybe is 10 years old, that 10 years ago was unfixable, but something changes now.

And maybe that problem all of a sudden becomes. becomes fixable. But it’s that, it’s that mindset of looking for ways to improve things, for looking for ways to make a difference. Absolutely.

Pietro: And there are also so many opportunities nowadays to connect, uh, with other organizations and other colleagues, uh, um, not only for example, in the same city, in the same country by organizing visits to another unit, another [00:27:00] healthcare provider, um, But we can also connect virtually, we can attend conferences worldwide.

One of the things that I have observed when I moved to the UK was finding how, for many reasons, our, in some specialties, the conferences and the organizations are a little bit self referential. I used to have a completely different mindset, uh, when, uh, being educated in Italy, we were always looking at, uh, uh, the rest of the world as a better opportunity, a better source for a challenge, inspiration, uh, research.

Uh, we maybe there’s a little bit of, uh, culture where we are used to. Talk down about ourselves and our own [00:28:00] country and our own health care system, but it helps to keep your eyes focused on what is available. And I found a little bit of a different approach many years ago when I moved to the UK and all the conferences were online.

Local and, uh, it was a fresh, uh, breath of air when I, uh, the Society for Acute Medicine organized finally a conference abroad and finally, uh, we were confronting ideas, uh, with, uh, colleagues, uh, from, uh, other European countries and see how The same, uh, issue was, uh, finding different solutions, uh, that fit in the local healthcare system.

Um, I think we need a lot more of that and we have the technology and the opportunities now to do that.

Mat: It’s interesting because there’s two things that I religiously go, there’s probably three things that I religiously go to, you know, one is a UK society held in UK. [00:29:00] One, one is a paediatric EMT European society, and another one is an EMT in general that are both the latter two are both European meetings and I religiously go to them, and they are they are Europe wide.

Um, and, um, often it’s quite nice if there’s somewhere nice and warm in Italy, actually. So, so that, that, that, that’s typically that makes it an attractive place to go as well. And, you know, usually they’re held sort of somewhere, somewhere nice. I think the next one is in Dublin, again, you know, great, great city to visit.

So, so that, that’s fine.

Pietro: Specialties like yours are wiser and they have a longer tradition of connecting across borders. My specialty of acute medicine. It’s probably one of the youngest and I think we’re still learning to, to connect with, you know, there’s the, there is no common definition of what acute medicine is.

There is a [00:30:00] different organization and training in each country. So we are. Still in the learning phase of, uh, defining the specialty, finding a common ground, finding, uh, even a common name, uh, and understanding sometimes you, you talk to people in the U. S. and, uh, you have to explain, uh, what you do, um, probably in your culture, in your organization, I would be called a hospitalist, I guess.

Mat: But it’s actually interesting for UNT. We, we have exactly the same thing that, that, that, you know, what, what, what ENT people do in Europe. An awful lot of that is stuff that I don’t understand or it doesn’t exist in UK or we wouldn’t do it. So, so, but, but we, that makes it richer, I think. No, it, you know, it doesn’t, it does the fact that it isn’t standardized.

That, that, that for me, that’s what makes the conference exciting. Let’s sort of go back to, to learning to hear, you know, what, what would be. [00:31:00] What would be your suggestions as to how people can learn to hear? Um,

Pietro: well, first of all, I would, I would suggest, um, shut up and listen. Um, depending on our, uh, our character, our impulse, sometimes we, we want to impress, we want to look smart, uh, we want to fill the gaps, uh, we have this, uh, urge to be talking, uh, but sometimes If you just, uh, listen to the person who’s talking and, uh, try to understand what they’re saying instead of thinking about, uh, what is the next thing you want to say, you, you hear a lot differently.

Uh, you start paying attention to the language, to the words they choose, uh, to what is the underlying message. And that gives you a lot of, uh, opportunities to then connect, uh, [00:32:00] on a deeper level, on a personal level, and, uh, to, uh, to connect to what is important to them. Um, I think that That sometimes, uh, we learn it the hard way also on our clinical roles when, uh, uh, clumsily at the beginning of our careers we follow a certain pattern and we bombard our, uh, patients as medical students with a lot of questions, uh, we follow a standard, uh, line of thought, uh, we might spend half an hour or longer taking a history, um, And that changes completely down, uh, down the line in your career when, uh, you start paying attention to what people say and quickly go to where you think you can find the answer.

Um, it’s a skill, like we have taken, uh, years to develop it in our clinical roles, uh, it can take some time to develop it in [00:33:00] a leadership role, but it can be done. So

Mat: there’s something there about. about less about my agenda and my ego and my importance and a bit more about about What are you saying, you know a focus on you or possibly a focus on what what we have in common But you know a focus on you a focus on what we have in common rather than a focus on my ego and my agenda And and making me look good

Pietro: and also an approach of uh being of service very often helps like we do with our patients where we humble ourselves and we’re just there to help.

But, um, if we adopt the same approach with, uh, the other people we connect with and, uh, try to make it a little bit more about them and a little bit less about us, uh, we can open a lot of doors with that approach.

Mat: I’ll bring us to a close and maybe if I can invite you. to share what would be your [00:34:00] top tips for doctors at work

Pietro: tips.

Uh, I would say in a nutshell, uh, um, find ways to be heard and shine. Don’t be, don’t be scared about, uh, giving feedback, make, uh, your plot problems known, try to find solution, be creative in your approach about, uh, finding solutions and connecting to the right people in your organization. And, uh, Don’t forget to shine and be yourself.

We are all unique. We all have, uh, lots of, uh, uh, unique qualities. And, uh, your organization can benefit from having you in, uh, in that position. You just, uh, need to find the right support system around you. Wonderful. Thank

Mat: you very much.

Pietro: My pleasure.[00:35:00]

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