[00:00:00] Mat: Welcome to Doctors at Work. My name’s Mat Daniel, and this podcast is about doctors’ careers. In today’s episode, I interview Joanne Compton, and we have a discussion about what new doctors need to succeed when they enter the world of work. Joanne tells me about the challenges new graduates face when they enter work, and much of this is based on her research with new graduates.
Going into work for the first time is a big step that everybody faces. It’s often challenging and made all the more salient by the seismic changes in how organisations function and what they expect of their staff. Joanne tells me how senior doctors and leaders can support new doctors and shares her tips for new graduates themselves.
Her top tip is about self care. I hope that it’s useful.
Welcome Jo-Ann tell me a little -bit about yourself.
[00:01:03] Jo-Ann: Oh, hello, Mat . Nice to see you again. So yes a little bit about myself. I’ve got quite a varied background not a medical background. I studied languages at university and then moved to London. And like many humanity arts students, I started working in sales later moved into account management within advertising.
And There was a wave of mergers acquisitions happening at this time in this sector and my role disappeared at in one of the agencies I was working for, so to make ends meet, I temp for a short time in a recruitment team within an HR department. In a large organization, and I found this work intrinsically more satisfying than my previous jobs.
And I realized it was because I was dealing with people and their real life concerns rather than promoting products or building brands for clients. Which all seemed maybe with benefit of hindsight, a little bit artificial to me. So this realization led to a change in direction. And I started to work in specialist a specialist recruitment company within advertising, so was able to use my previous knowledge in a different way.
I established myself in within the, within a niche in the market. And after four years or so felt, I was really flying high and feeling very confident. And this was in the late nineties. And I took the plunge and set up my own recruitment business, which I then ran successfully for nearly 20 years.
So a few years ago, I moved to Oxfordshire. where I continued with my business, I became associated with an advocacy charity. The work that they taught me, it taught me about the real value of supporting people, the, or the value of impartial support, should I say, with their decision making. And this coupled with my experience of supporting my father and big life change.
Inspired me to formalize training and develop myself professionally within the area of coaching. So started the MA in coaching and mentoring at Oxford Brookes Business School. And there we go. I graduated this year and working within the area of career coaching for graduates and early people in their early stages of their careers.
So that’s it in a nutshell.
[00:03:16] Mat: I’m interested in hearing a little bit more about graduates transitioning into the workplace. That’s quite a challenging time. What do we know, why is it challenging and what do we know about that challenge?
[00:03:29] Jo-Ann: That’s right. Yes. It is a real challenge particularly for this for this age group, not particularly, but it is a transition.
And it’s a life shift, it’s moving away from home, moving away moving away from home university, standing on your own two feet, it requires a whole sort of minds, mindset shifts as well. And it can be quite bewildering and Sort of leaving your support networks and so on at university and having to stand on your own two feet and, being judged as well.
A lot of times things are quite gentle, maybe quite gentle at university, but in the world of work, obviously, you’re being judged, you’re being paid, you have to perform if you like. So yes, there are feelings of insecurity and fear and, all the, all about the unknown.
And yeah, it is a sort of a, quite a tricky time at the moment. I wrote my dissertation. I focused my dissertation at Brooks. On this, particularly on this on this sort of this group of this demographic, if you like. So I had a I conducted some very in depth interviews with quite a number of high performing graduates who’d been accepted on to graduate training programs in large organizations.
So quite prized positions, if you like, quite competitive environment. And I wanted to… I wanted to hear first hand what their experiences were like there’s a lot of perceived wisdom out there about graduates and lots of articles in in the HR business press, lots of things on the, popular articles as well on the radio newspapers, et cetera, is all about the stereotype of this particular age group, these millennials, if you like, end of, yeah, this sort of people born at this time talking about their, some point to them being very entitled and anxious, particularly anxious they have high expectations of their organizations.
And there is quite a lot written, especially in the business of the HR press about the protean, if you like, careerist profile being the winner. And what I mean by that is Protean is somebody who can change easily, frequently they’re very versatile, they can do different things, they can, they move frequently between organizations and these people this sort of this type of the, of people are portrayed as the winners.
So this sort of doesn’t. It doesn’t sit terribly well with young graduates necessarily.
[00:06:06] Mat: That sounds like a winning formula to me, if you’re able to flex and do lots of different things. That sounds like a great characteristics in a young graduate, I would say.
[00:06:14] Jo-Ann: Absolutely it is.
But is that the reality, Mat ? Young people that go into these organizations they’re required to be very self reliant. And almost nowadays. This is more the expectation than it used to be. In days, in years gone by, perhaps our parents generation, or, there, there were, you had jobs for life and so on.
You have you, you have these had a relational, Contract, if you like, psychological contract between employer and employee where, which was, which I suppose what I mean by that is that it was there was loyalty in built in that relationship. It was a relational relation, there was the expectation that, the employer would commit to offering lifetime support.
long term security to the employee and in, in return the employee would be loyal and work there for many years. And so that is no longer the case. Quite a long time now and it’s even becoming more volatile now. So people talk about this relationship, the psychological contract has shifted from being A relational one to being a much more transactional where, the company can’t commit to offering long term employment security and the but in its place, perhaps in its place, perhaps, they, the company will offer employees.
learning professional development opportunities, high pay and in return the person, the employee will work hard, but that’s the extent of it. And there’s a, there’s an understanding that when that, when the employee has got what they need, they will move on. So this is the portrayal, if you like.
It’s not necessarily the reality and there’s a lot of different things said in the press, but. Whatever the reality whatever the truth is, I suppose we can say that that, that really whether it’s relational, non relational, whatever, there’s no doubt that the psychological contract has shifted to what extent, we don’t know, but it has definitely shifted in a way which now encourages us employees to be self reliant and manage their own sort of career plans, if you like.
They can’t rely upon their employees, employers rather to do that for them. So this so this is the environment that young graduates find themselves. And it is, it can be quite challenging.
[00:08:47] Mat: Yeah. It’s interesting, Jo-Ann , because if I think back when I entered the world of work we used to have the firm.
I know that your research didn’t particularly deal with them doctors. I do think that what she found, I think, is very translatable. But when I entered the world of work, we had the firm and, and there was the consultant, the senior edge. The reg, the SHO and the house officer and we did everything together and you belonged to, to a team and the team looked after you and the team trained you and developed you and you stayed in touch.
And I think NHS also was a different organization. Then it is now as and I think, it’s interesting to hear you say that because I suspect what’s happened in the NHS, then it sounds like that’s just a reflection of the world of work out there, which is that work is no longer a relationship in the way that it was work is.
is a transaction which I think maybe my personal view is I find that a little bit
[00:09:40] Jo-Ann: sad. Yeah. Sad. Absolutely. It’s sad, especially in your sector, in perhaps different in the business sector. As I mentioned you it’s comparable my set of graduates that I interviewed with yours in, insofar as these were, the people I interviewed were, people who’d gone to high flying universities got really good degrees and were perhaps selected maybe one or a few of, Just a very few number of places within these sort of large organizations.
So yeah, they had high expectations. I suppose young people, any young person, whether it’s a doctor or economics grad or whoever they will have high expectations of their employer going when they join, weren’t they? And I suppose if those expectations aren’t met it will lead to potential problems down the line.
[00:10:33] Mat: So what are young graduates expecting as they enter the world of work?
[00:10:39] Jo-Ann: Yeah certainly they’re looking for stimulating work. Okay. Stimulating work. They’re looking for more egalitarian relationships with their manager, so certainly some of the people I interviewed they felt there’s such a disconnect when they joined their organization and it was a very much quite hierarchical and a sort of top down management style and the manager didn’t have time for them.
they were treated as a bit of a commodity. They felt, this is according to their, these are their accounts they felt that the graduate training program was it was outdated. It really didn’t speak to them. The language of young people a lot of young people now. So it talked about leadership.
For example, one person I interviewed in particular, she was really taken aback, quite insulted. She said it was as if they were just, spouting this stuff from a 1980s manual, HR manual. She was quite funny. And she said, I don’t necessarily know if, even know if I want to be a leader.
So they’re constantly pushing this thing about leadership. So yeah sorry, I forgot what your question was now,
[00:11:50] Mat: I think I’m interested in what People’s expectations are and of course we’re generalizing, aren’t we? Because we are, yeah but yeah, so I think it was around what, what are young people expect for work?
[00:12:01] Jo-Ann: that’s right. One of the things which came out of my study was in terms of it’s not complicated. I’m just wondering how to express this. It’s some of the findings, okay, from my research showed that despite these young people who are highly this, that, and the other, and high achievers, et cetera they displayed all of the things you would expect a young person to, to feel because they’re develop, still developing, aren’t they?
These people are in their early 20s, early mid 20s. So the things they talked about a lot were lack of self confidence and despite the fact that they were, high achievers, again, real fear of failure self doubt, insecurity Finding the voice to talk to, talk to more senior people and so on.
And their expectations were that somehow because they had this self consciousness, and, people always trying to, join everything and not missing it out on any social occasions they, they, they were, couldn’t necessarily open up to if they were experiencing any anxieties or problems.
It was interesting that HR, for example, was perceived as, by actually all of the people I spoke to, they, with a bit of suspicion, maybe that reflects. the sort of lack of confidence of people in, at that age group they saw HR as more of a remedial thing and they didn’t want to admit to any weakness.
And so yeah the some of the graduates they certainly were looking for their managers To be just to assume a role of a guide almost so to have not just tell them what to do But really should be a guide a mentor a coach. It was all about the relationship and so somebody they wanted somebody who would understand them what they needed in terms of their learning and development, but also Even in extremists.
There were a couple of people I spoke to who had quite sort of severe anxiety during lockdown, and they just didn’t know which way to turn. They found that when they talked eventually became a bit braver and talk to somebody. They felt much better about it. But there was that fear of opening up and fear of being vulnerable.
So they were seeking a sort of a relational engagement. Yeah. With the manager. Of course, these are ideals, aren’t they? But that these when the graduate felt that the manager really understood them and have taken the time to scratch below the surface. This was when they it really helped.
[00:14:34] Mat: I’m interested. Maybe you can tell me a little bit more about that. I’m a senior doctor and for the other. senior doctors listening or for NHS managers and leadership listening? What can we as individuals or what can we as organizations do to better support new doctors as they first enter the world of work?
[00:14:55] Jo-Ann: Yes. It’s about this idea of building a relational depth. And so you think what is that? What is that relational depth? So is it just telling somebody what to, but it, it’s about learning emotional intelligence skills. Being able to blend that empathy encourage people to be open and genuine and build a strong connection.
So really it is about. I think developing skills over and beyond the pure learning, if you like, does that make sense? Developing, I think, emotional intelligence skills.
[00:15:38] Mat: I’m interested. Okay. I’m going to go to work. Tomorrow and I might have interactions with an early career doctor.
It’s, I’m sure there are some skills that I need to develop and, maybe that might take a bit longer. But, what kind of actions can I take tomorrow? That’s going to. That’s going to help young doctors when they’re first entering world war.
[00:16:02] Jo-Ann: Yeah, I think sitting down with them and taking the time to listen to where they’re up to and not assuming that they’re just able to get on with stuff or that it can be somebody else’s problem.
I think, I think young people have this, especially, I can imagine, young doctors, but also the graduates I spoke to, they feel this enormous sort of burden and they’re feeling that, maybe they have to figure things out themselves. Because if they open up, it might be perceived as weakness. So I think taking the time and the care to…
to nurture them. These are young people, they’re still developing an enormous amount mentally and so on. So I think that would be probably my top, top tip there, really.
[00:16:53] Mat: And again, if I think then as organizations what do we, as a system, as a team what kind of things do we need to put into place?
to make sure that people are set up to succeed when they first enter the world of work?
[00:17:09] Jo-Ann: It’s sufficient training for doctors in non clinical areas to do, so I mentioned emotional intelligence, for example, and the importance of the relationship. These are all people skills, aren’t they?
So that it is obviously in the interest of everybody, isn’t it? Because you want to retain your staff. Sort of employee retention programs in, in some way, because people are, they’re voting with their feet now, aren’t they?
[00:17:38] Mat: People’s skills are useful for early career doctors and people’s skills are useful for everybody else as well, aren’t they?
It’s something. And some people have them and some people find it easier to develop. And for some people, it comes a little bit more difficult. The other thing, that’s coming up for me, as you mentioned, that is that time? Because I think one of the challenges that we have maybe in healthcare and probably in industry also is everybody’s just so busy all the time.
And It’s very easy to cut out the time that you might want to spend with a with an early career doctor. Even if you have that in your timetable, it’s probably one of the first thing that’s going to end up going when you’re busy because you, it’s.
It’s one of the things that’s important, but it’s never on top of your priority list because there’s always something else that’s more urgent. Yeah. So you will recognize it’s important, but there’s always something else that’s more urgent, but I think you are spot on in the kind of sense about, how people succeed and retention because that, that strikes me as a really worthwhile investment.
It’s a worthwhile investment of the time of the senior doctors, to invest. Because, probably like a 10 minute conversation, that probably would go a long way wouldn’t it? That’s right. It would a three hour talk, yeah? A 10 minute listening conversation every now and then that, it sounds, from what you’re saying, that’s going to go a long way towards building the relationships that then means that people succeed and people stay.
[00:18:59] Jo-Ann: Yes, indeed. And prioritizing well being. This is a time that people rushing around and working really hard, I imagine, as junior doctors not even having time for breaks the foundation doctors year one doctors, not having time for breaks. Not having, not eating and drinking properly, not having time to go and do exercise, prioritizing their well being.
These have enormous effect implications on people’s well being and ability to function well at work. So yes very important.
[00:19:31] Mat: You can’t do that for any length of time. You might be able to do that for a month or two, that, that kind of behaviour, that, that’s not sustainable.
the long term. Okay. So any, anything else about what senior doctors, leaders, organizations can do to set up young doctors for success when they first enter work?
[00:19:51] Jo-Ann: So I’ve mentioned taking the time to, to develop the relationship, take it, just taking the time to, to be a, have somebody allocated to you development of emotional intelligence type courses to yeah I’m just trying to think here.
I’m not entirely sure that anything else is as top priorities is springing to mind at the moment.
[00:20:15] Mat: Let’s move on to the young graduates because I’m going to come and ask you about what they can do. But before I do that it, when you were saying earlier it struck me as gosh, they have really high expectations of themselves.
[00:20:33] Jo-Ann: Yeah, absolutely. So these are people, some of them, maybe it’s the high achievement. Maybe it’s. So much is expected of them now, they study so hard at school, they these are not things that should never necessarily change, but there is an awful lot of pressure.
I think young people entering into the world of work, it’s slightly different than when I started working, I remember being able to, I had the first two or three jobs and I was able to get a mortgage, put down a down payment on a flat in London. That’s unheard of now, isn’t it? And so I think things are just The pressure, the uncertainties of life now, I think there is a different climate that young people are experiencing, but maybe every generation says this, I’m not sure but certainly those markers of adulthood, if you like, buying that first flat, being independent, being able to stand on your own two feet they’re much trickier it seems to me now than it was for our generation.
So I’m starting out. So I think that that must cause anxiety because, a young person, after their mid twenties onwards, they want to buy their own place. They want to stand on their own two feet. If it’s not possible, they have to go back to home and live with their parents. There’s all sorts of social media, my goodness, all the comparison, of course, and people posting constantly about how wonderful their lives are, their careers, and they’re doing this.
So yeah, it’s in their face all the time, isn’t it? There are lots of differences.
[00:22:07] Mat: It’s interesting, that, Here we are, two old people talking about young people. I do interview young people also, by the way. I don’t just interview people that are my age but it is because I’m trying to think, back to, to, to what you said.
I probably had high. expectations of myself, but I probably also, I entered work and then I was an adult. Yeah, I had a car, I also had enough money to put a mortgage. All of that kind, people settled down, got married, had children. You were in your early twenties and you were an adult, but I think what I’m hearing you say is that, that they enter work.
And they’re expected to be much more of an adult than perhaps in the past people were because, in the past people led you, guided you, you were part of a team, you were there to be developed, whereas now people turn up and from what you say, there’s much greater expectations that they’re going to know how to do stuff and maybe outside of NHS, they’re going to move on.
So there’s that expectation that they’re going to turn up to work and be an adult at work, but they can’t be an adult outside the work because. They can’t have a mortgage, they can’t get married, they probably can’t have children. So it is a slightly strange one. But what can people do say, thinking of a final year medical student that’s going to be starting work, over the next year or so what can people do to prepare themselves for success?
[00:23:25] Jo-Ann: Yeah, I suppose if you can’t change the system, you’ve got to you’ve got to flex with it somehow, don’t you? But yeah, we talked about, Then people needing to be more self reliant, increasing amount of self reliance being expected of them and even You know this like your own sort of little professional entrepreneur, you need to be able to promote yourself Get out there and sell yourself if you like to the marketplace so if that is the reality, then you need to find ways of building your own brand, if you like.
Again, horrible language, I think, but you have to build your brand. Be very clear about who you are, what you need, where you’re going, your whole career management plan. So that you can present yourself as a, almost like a commodity, that this is my background, it’s my credibility, my, this is how I can add value to your business or your organization.
So yeah, this is. Probably what, how you probably need to behave if you want to get on, if you like. Or this is the, again, we’re speaking in huge generalizations here, but yeah don’t be presumably somebody who has reached the end of their medical training has is not afraid to ask questions.
That’s taken for granted, but I suppose taking the initiative, not wait waiting for not taking on a passive role But it is about being taking the initiative learning accepting new challenges, not saying no to anything, just taking on something and just having that confidence to, to ride with it.
Taking risks, making mistakes, all of these things.
[00:25:09] Mat: What kind of a mindset do people need to accept challenges and to be willing to take risks?
[00:25:17] Jo-Ann: You have to be open. I suppose it all depends on how much you feel you’ve got to lose, but this fear of failure was something, which came up quite a lot with the young grads I spoke about, spoke to rather.
But somehow There’s nothing to be afraid of. Why are you afraid so much? Fear of failure, maybe? It, we’re not, we’re talking about their expectations, also we haven’t talked about the expectations of their parents, for example. Some people have a lot of expectations laid onto them by their parents or society, for whatever reason, so yeah, however they achieve it, to not be afraid to fail to have a, an open mindset
[00:25:58] Mat: So there’s that thing that’s coming up for me about being afraid to fail is, there’s that which goes I’m perfect and I already know everything, I think, isn’t it, I’m perfect, I already know everything.
Therefore I can’t possibly fail because if I fail, that’s going to demonstrate that I’m not perfect and I don’t.
[00:26:19] Jo-Ann: yeah, that’s right. That’s absolutely right. And I think this perfectionism is it’s everywhere, isn’t it? I’ve certainly experienced it with my children who are in their mid twenties, but, the wanting to be perfect in their work, the way they look, the way they present themselves to their peer group and so on.
[00:26:37] Mat: It’s not particularly healthy, is it? And you’re right about, social media where, everybody presents a very carefully crafted image of themselves to the public and then everybody else watches and assumes. That’s the reality of what that person’s life is like, and of course, increasingly, we’re all realizing that we’re not so I think, for me about that failure, but particularly people early in their careers.
And if I think, early career doctors say they’re there to learn. And if I think you know what I would say to trainees that are working with me. is, I’m the consultant. I’m there to know when I’m going to, when to stop you so that you don’t cause any harm.
Yeah, that’s my job. Yeah, so tomorrow, my job is to protect patients to make sure that the people that I work with work within the boundaries that they’ve been appropriately trained, appropriately supervised. And, and I can watch people so that they don’t make mistakes.
Yeah. But that’s my job, isn’t it? Yeah. As the consultant that’s overseas an early career doctor. Yeah. I would say that their job is, obviously to keep me posted about how they’re doing and what they know and what they don’t know and to ask questions, but also to learn, because I guess you know what for me wouldn’t be okay would be somebody who keeps making the same mistake again, that wouldn’t be okay.
But, making a mistake and learning from it. That’s great, isn’t it? Yeah, because, because, this is going to shock you, Joanne, but you know what? I’m not perfect either. We’re all learning, aren’t we? .
[00:28:03] Jo-Ann: Yeah and, making mistakes, I, that can be a valuable learning experience.
So switching that this burden of response, or this terrible fear of making mistakes into trying to see it more as an opportunity to grow and as a and as a way of building your confidence. But yes I think these anxieties that young folk have in their 20s are age old, aren’t they?
We’re not talking about anything particularly novel, new, but I think… The environment that they find themselves now has changed enormously.
[00:28:42] Mat: absolutely. I always think if people are anxious I think for me that’s a sign of a good doctor, if somebody’s there saying, oh, I’m worried I’m going to do something wrong and a patient’s going to come to harm and I’m thinking, great, keep worrying, that’s a really good thing to me you care, that, that tells me.
That you want to do a good thing. If you are worrying, that for me says that actually, you’re probably a good doctor because you want to do a good job. Yeah but there is, there’s, I suppose there’s the anxiety about doing a good job and taking what you do seriously, which is good.
And there’s the anxiety, too. which is, which gets in the way of learning, which isn’t good.
[00:29:21] Jo-Ann: Which is internalized, isn’t it? And which is not shared. Because I think when you share things and if you feel comfortable enough to be able to share it with some trusted ally at work, that will relieve the burden to a certain extent anyway.
But yes, it’s when you internalize things and don’t talk about it and just go in on yourself, that’s not particularly healthy.
[00:29:44] Mat: What else can new graduates do to set themselves up for success?
[00:29:49] Jo-Ann: So yes, we talk about not trying not to compare yourself to others, but again, it’s so difficult, isn’t it?
I suppose more practical things, perhaps find a mentor, allies at work, seek them out, if, try to seek out that type of support. Taking care of yourself, we mentioned that earlier as well, but taking that time away from technology to and really… Take the time to understand what your body needs and taking time to spend with friends.
Friends are very important that feeling of connection and connecting back to, your previous life, your friends at school, perhaps, or whatever, if that makes sense. But I think friends, sharing things, connectivity, connection with others, it’s incredibly important not to get too tunnel visioned about work taking time out.
[00:30:41] Mat: How do people find a mentor at work?
[00:30:45] Jo-Ann: Yeah, HR, you need to probably, I’d imagine you’d have to look up the schemes, different company organisations will have different schemes, but it’s quite they’re quite widespread now. I might, that’s my understanding. So to try and take the initiative and seek these things out that would be a tip.
[00:31:05] Mat: , So the HR scheme the equivalent that I would see in healthcare would be the kind of clinical supervisor, educational supervisor, so that’s something that you’re allocated to . Yeah. I like the idea of, you said, of seeking out. People. Yeah. Because I think again, if I think as a senior doctor, it’s always very flattering if somebody wants to come and talk to me.
Yeah. So somebody says, I want to hear your experiences and I’m thinking I really don’t have very much to say, but this is very flattering, isn’t it? As a senior person, when a younger person comes and says, I want to learn from you and I seek your advice.
So I think you’re right that, a young doctor shouldn’t be afraid. to go and talking to a senior doctor to, to ask for their opinion and advice because chances are the senior doctor is probably going to be quite flattered.
[00:31:51] Jo-Ann: Yeah, but I think one thing that came up in my dissertation again was this young people, they don’t necessarily know where their role fits into the bigger system, so like this particular girl I was speaking to, I think she was on some rotation in a large manufacturing company. And what she was doing was quite niche and, all absorbing, but she had no idea how it fitted in to other functions and how, and so I can imagine having a mentor, having somebody, a manager, explain that or for it to be incorporated into induction schemes, just that sort of being able to get, gain an overview and then being able to be signposted to mentoring opportunities or who could, could provide that support.
That would be very useful.
[00:32:42] Mat: And actually, if I think of that again, translating some of that directly into NHS context is a lot of the time early career doctors say, I’m just rewriting drug chart. The only thing I do is chase blood results. And you’re right, actually, because, for me as a consultant, they are essential things that needs to happen.
And, and I see that those things are valuable. They might not be interesting, but they are valuable and they contribute to patient outcomes. And it’s perhaps that people don’t realize quite how important their role is. So again, maybe an action that I need to take away is to help people recognize that whatever job they do.
however niche or absorbing or isolating or boring it might be that really makes a huge contribution to the overall system and the overall patient experience. Totally, yeah, I know. So maybe my final question Joanne, would just be what would be your top two or three tips for a young doctor that’s about to enter the world of work for the first time.
[00:33:47] Jo-Ann: I think it would probably need, there are many tips about getting on and all this sort of thing, but I think it has to be surrounding well being. I think any top tips about just pacing yourself, taking time out, sharing the load with loved ones, friends, family, etc. Mentor, ally at work, if you have, if you manage to, to find.
Suitable people with time. But yes, I think being kind to yourself, not putting too much pressure on yourself. But so easy to say, isn’t it? But I say this from a, from the standpoint of being a mother with a daughter who’s an F1. And that’s probably my top, would be my top tip, checking in checking in with family and friends regularly because it, it is a huge shock to the system, isn’t it?
Starting, starting that first professional job, that first career job big change from university.
[00:34:48] Mat: Wonderful. Thank you very much, Jo-Ann .
[00:34:50] Jo-Ann: Thank you.